Tim Barford, Vegfest founder
Jim:
So in case you think I haven't, I haven't introduced you. So it'd be awesome Tim to get started with a little bit of your journey into the world of veganism. What brought you here?
Tim Barford:
Well that's interesting. So I was thinking about this and I was thinking about the first time I heard the word vegetarian. And I was aged, I was born in 1963 so I'm 60 now. And in 1967 or 1968... family paid a visit to my great aunt and I learned two words that day. One was bongole because she lived in a bongole and secondly vegetarian because she was vegetarian. I remember my mother distinctly explaining to us what that meant and it turns out actually that my great aunt and her five sisters including my grandmother who were all born in about the 1880s 1890s they were a family of vegetarians who were all raised vegetarian from birth. There was a part of the suffragette movement. And so, and indeed my grandmother went on to be an MI5 spy. So my father was born vegetarian, spent the first ten years of his life as vegetarian before his parents divorced and then he started eating meat. And I got, that's my earliest memories of vegetarian. We were brought up in the Mediterranean to react what you would call a Mediterranean diet. You know, my mum and dad had good, good. healthy sustainable plant-based options as a matter of course. But it wasn't till I was 17 in 1980 that I went vegetarian and it was a spur of the moment part of my brothers had come to visit. I was still at college at the time. Mum had offered him some sandwiches or something like, you know, hospitality. He says, oh no thanks, I'm a vegetarian. And she goes, oh, right, how interesting, why's that? He says, oh, it makes me less violent. And that. struck me you know straight away I said oh yeah right uh the guy also happened to play guitar like Andy Gill at the Gang Force so that to me was really progressive and that's my favourite guitarist actually at the time and so you know it's really like always struck with vegetarian being quite rebellious quite uh quite kind of um I don't know quite evolved quite cutting edge who for the next few years I was what you call pretty much plant-based. So I was eating a lot of whole food plant-based and I was always the one who, if we'd been up all night Saturday, make sure before we all went home on Sunday that we all had a good meal and at least looked half the part to get back and then off to college again and such like. So all the way through the 80s I looked after myself, but it was in 1984. Leeds, Chapel Town, and that was during the miners' strike. And by that time I was a fully paid up member of the peace convoy, been travelling all over the UK, having free festivals, and living right out there, a very anarchistic life, very out there. fabulous experience because this is the time of Margaret Thatcher and the real police brutality was really evident. It was a time of really radical time, anyone who goes back to that time will know that and it was during that time after we'd actually all been arrested at this rock festival. on a bank holiday of August, welly, 1984 at Nossel Priory. So the mining strike, you know, we had the SPG, we had the Met, a whole lot descended on us, took us out, put us in the prisons and the bribery and what have you. And I came out, I bumped into all these anarchists in Leeds, cutting edge anarchists, and they were all animal rights activists. I was like, oh wow, this is really interesting. obviously had to share values of hating Margaret Thatcher and the police and such. And then they were like, I said, oh, they're all vegan. I said, I seriously heard the word vegan. They said, oh, wow, what's that? They said, oh, well, we don't eat animal products. I said, oh, wicked, that's me. So I was overnight. But true to say that I am a vegan pretty much as a diet, so it's a plant-based diet really. And although... there was an animal rights aspect there. That wasn't really prevalent in my understanding of veganism. My main motivation was health. I felt the energy and I was partying a lot and I was living off fruit and harvour and stuff like this. I was really good energy. And that was the real try. I was very alternative, cutting edge. There was nobody else I knew was vegan. There was a few vegetarians on the convoy, there were no vegans. And that was it really. I never looked back. I made my vows at the time from, I remember 1984 was the time of live aid and that's the time when we came into our living rooms that, you know, starvation and the reality of that. And of course as we know now, the very little land of water that was growing crops was growing cattle fodder in Ethiopia in 1984. literally the price of a pint of milk was the price of a child's life and that's what stuck me to being vegan as it was very much a human rights issue. The cut out the middle man was the obvious answer.
Jim:
Mm.
Tim Barford:
Stop feeding grain to cows. And I think these days they say something like, 80, is it 80 million or whatever, tons of grain
Jim:
Mm.
Tim Barford:
fed to animals and only four million tons of grain would actually feed starving people adequately. That mismatch was always my original motivation. But I think it's true to say from day one I was what you now call a holistic vegan.
Jim:
Mm.
Tim Barford:
For me it just ticked all these boxes. It was like, oh my God, wow, you can actually do something. Instead of just protest at what we haven't got, we can celebrate what we have got and cut out years in animals. It was just such a game changer. And so from day one it was just an absolute, yeah, I loved it, embraced it. And that was how I started.
Jim:
Yeah, fascinating journey. When you, I'm really interested in that moment in sort of 1984, when you said the anarchists were around you sort of talking about veganism, and you sort of were like, oh, okay, this is something I hadn't heard of. And around that period of time, you know, you mentioned like, live aid and so on, and the kind of aspect of food poverty and these kind of things.
Tim Barford:
Mm.
Jim:
Was there, was there a, and this, forgive the naive question, but was there... that direct link being made by the people that you spoke to about the amount of grain being produced and so on and so forth, or was their kind of angle much more the specific lives of individual animals? Was that their concern or was it kind of as holistic as you described?
Tim Barford:
That's an interesting question, so I was actually thinking about that, because it was definitely animal rights activists that it was part of an anarchist collective in Leeds in the early 80s, and that anarchist collective was, you know... advocating animal rights. I think the difficulty was that there wasn't really an understanding of animal rights. Bear in mind, even Tom Reagan, I don't think had even written his books, but it was just beginning to develop that. There was just an understanding that we're not eating animals. But that was extended to not wearing animals and things like zoos. But there was always, from day one, my first animal rights protest was October 1980. And this is when I'd just gone vegetarian, I was at college, and I went up to London for an anti-shooting, anti-blood sports, anti-hunting rally at High Park Corner. And I could distinctly remember that by that time, I hadn't, you know, I'd stopped wearing leather and eating meat, and you know, having addressed the dairy or eggs, but I wasn't eating meat or fish and wearing leather. I was pretty strong on that. I remember there being this burger van and then all the activists were eating burgers and wearing leather. And I remember asking one of them, I was going, how come you're eating a burger and you're anti... You know, it's just not an animal rights. It's like, oh no, that's nothing to do with it. No, no, we're anti-shooting and anti-hunting. And, um... That, that... I remember from day one, it was reminding me of how confused our movement is, because you know, it's only now, you know, that we're really establishing the ground rules and understanding that we have, you know, not only more than one movement in the sense that we have a plant-based movement, advocating
Jim:
Mm.
Tim Barford:
for the benefits of plant-based lifestyles, we have an animal rights leasely. called animal rights movement. Within that movement too, there's an animal protection movement, there's an animal liberation movement, there's an animal welfare movement. And, you know, there isn't even an understanding now of animal rights in the way that I would articulate animal rights being a basic birthright. for animals
Jim:
Mm.
Tim Barford:
not to be commodified. And that's all animals. Now that's the basic principle of animal rights, but somehow that's got lost in the post over generations. And even now I hear people of my age and going back to those days who've been AR advocates and activists still don't really get that. You know, it's a basic one birthright. And that level of education has very much got lost in the post. That said, our feedback, we do really good feedback for you, we get a really good glimpse into how do people define veganism, how do people
Jim:
Mm.
Tim Barford:
understand this mishmash of different... different goals, you know, bear in mind too, we've got movement, we've got individual change and then we've got system change for different roles, the different strategies. So how do people make sense of this? And I think there's beginning now to emerge. what we call a rights-based movement that understands the principles of animal rights but is also holistic in its teachings. So you know for example you may well have somebody like... Paul Minner was a junior doctor, I've mentioned him in a magazine article. He's an animal rights advocate, he understands principles of animal rights and he refers to this in his talks and in his lectures and when he talks to people on Facebook and such like. So he can talk about, I don't know, you know, say the benefits of plant-based diets for companion animals without conflating the principles of animal rights and but would also be able to skillfully, you know, promote the use of promise diets and such like.
Jim:
Mm.
Tim Barford:
That clarity I think is beginning to emerge more and more and more. And that's one of the most progressive things of our movement at the moment, is that especially up and coming activists have a better grasp, I would say, of the animal rights principle that underpins our movement. And they're not afraid to advocate for rights and say benefits of plant-based diets in the same sentence. Perhaps with the old school, it's a bit of an us and them sometimes.
Jim:
Mm.
Tim Barford:
Sometimes it's like, oh, you know, it has to be like this and everything else is not good enough. And it's
Jim:
Yeah.
Tim Barford:
like, well, it doesn't really have to be like that actually. It could be, you know, the important thing is to be clear and understand its principles and advocate for that.
Jim:
Yeah, I'm jumping around with the chronology, but it's sort of the subject is here and I think it's worth probing a little bit. I'd love to get your opinion on this. You know, given the sort of, you know, the information age, the social media age in which we live and that there is a million different ways now that sort of veganism, plant-based diets are kind of presented to people coming into the movement and indeed people who are already there. Do you see that kind of one version of the truth, if you like, as important or kind of actually detrimental to bringing more people into the movement? Do you think it's important to have a kind of multitude of viewpoints and differences with overlap and a bit of convergence? Or do you think we do actually need to be much more on the same page than perhaps we are sometimes?
Tim Barford:
Well that's a really interesting question. This is really actually something in motion at the moment. We're seeing this evolve. The answer is both really, isn't it? So, you know, when I refer back to 1980, what was always clear is that there's been an animal rights movement that at times has rejected veganism. And then there's been a plant-based diet movement that at times has rejected the animal rights principle. The trick is, in my book, is to accept it how it is, meet people where they are, embrace the fact that we have a wildly different hollow all sorts of skill sets and different opinions and we're also all growing and learning you know this is work in progress it's not a set in stone so it's really important to embrace that wide diversity and just be you know friendly. accommodating and understanding and tolerant and generous, kind, all of these peaceful uplifting, encouraging, all of these qualities that we really, you know, know benefit learning, you know, especially a goal of seeking a learning outcome, which is so often missing in these discussions. People want to punish, be puritanical and exclude people. It's not been good enough. That's the opposite of what I want to do. I want to embrace everybody, come rain or shine. That's something I learned on the Free Festival movement. I mean, every free festival in the UK in the 80s had a free, free kitchen. And you didn't have to do anything to be able to eat there. And that was the principle, is that everybody, it was a free festival, people got fed, come rain or shine, and we shared what we had. And that was really under... So I think with the vegan movement there's been such a mishmash and when I think of, you know, there was a bit of a move ten years ago to really kind of make the whole thing very much just a plant-based diet and remove the ethics and stop addressing the ethics of the animal rights position. rightly so, but at the same time we've also seen sort of hardcore animal rights advocates reject plant-based growth and plant-based benefits of somehow not being pure enough or something. The trick is to embrace both. The pointless diets are obviously really beneficial, they're really attractive. And we see our events have really played into that over the last 20 years. So does something like veganism, something that really focuses on the attractive things. We know this is gonna help people get over the line. And so many people have gone vegan because of veganism. But at the same time, you can't just reject and make out that, oh, because you've got an animal rights position somehow, you're a purist, or a militant, or whatever. you know, you're extreme. It's like, no, it's just understanding the principles that animals are not ours to commodify. And that, you know, this principle extends to all animals wherever we can. We're in a deeply speciesist world, we know that. We know compromises have to be made. We know there's sometimes nuclear lines. You know, we know this, for example, with the recent, you know, we won't go down this road, but you know, with all the medicine. animal testing has really been put under the spotlights the last three years. I think we've always accepted as vegans that some vegans require either life saving or perhaps pain management medicines that have been tested on animals may indeed contain some trace animal ingredients. I think we've always accepted that some of the foods, for example, some of that chocolate, isn't always made in a 100%. vegan environment, there may well be up to a percentage, you know, one percent dairy contamination. You know, these are areas I think some of us, you know, perhaps when we've been eaten out, when we've eaten in a place that doesn't always serve just vegan food, we know there's a risk of contamination and level. So there's always been some grey areas and that's okay, you know, that's ongoing, but we shouldn't fall out with each other, we shouldn't... We should seek to understand, be tolerant where we can. But I think we should have two clear things. One is the principle of animal rights underpinning our movement. And two, a real acceptance of the benefits of what I would call our plant-based educators. So the people who specialise in promoting the benefits of whole food plant-based diets, for example, there's no reason why these people can't do that without an understanding of an animal rights principle, which many do. my animal rights advocates should want to, I don't know, diss somebody for promoting them. We can work together and we do. And that holistic understanding and that framing of veganism, I think it's essential moving forward. Our feedback from the show that probably around about 60% of people would count themselves as vegan for the animals, around about 40% of people describe themselves as holistic vegans which is vegan for all reasons,
Jim:
Mm.
Tim Barford:
including plant based options, but understanding an animal rights principle underpins that. I think that's the key is to have that understanding. It's a pretty basic one too. It's like, hey, can we stop bothering animals? That's it. Leave them out. stop using them. What's also interesting I would point to is that amongst the vegan feedback we get is that there's a different understanding of the goal of veganism and for many of us it's to end the use of animals, it's a position. from which our lifestyle choices come. So we're very much about ending the use of all animals. But as many people who would be defined veganism as ending the use of all animals, you've got an equal number. Defining veganism is a way of life that reduces the suffering of animals. So there is some conflict there in the understanding, but again, I advocate for the end of the use of our lands. But I understand that when you look at things like perhaps, I don't know, unintentional deaths in harvesting.
Jim:
Mm.
Tim Barford:
pesticides and stuff, perhaps some of the land that is used for growing crops that is then no longer available for free living beings. Veganism isn't the perfect way of life. So although we may seek to end the use of all animals, we are in fact by nature reducing the suffering of animals. We're not actually ending the use of animals. We're maybe ending the use of willful commodification. animals. So it's going to be some free living beings in a world a way less than you know the crop death argument we put out as we've seen because of the height of the combined harvests generally don't chew up all these animals but they're awesome. Let's be clear it's not you know a perfect way of life nor should it be nor is it pretending to be. And therefore both of those interpretations in many respects are correct. Whilst we should advocate for the end of the use of all animals, it's okay also to recognise that this is a way of life that reduces the suffering of animals.
Jim:
Mm.
Tim Barford:
Whether that's the goal or not, that's a debatable point, but not one that we should fall out about and reject each other over. And that still goes on. There's still a puritanical approach. And for example, it has seen... particularly unpleasant blog written about veganism, you know, the staff there, and questioning their salaries, and I think it was described as a British capitalist food fest. You know, there are elements of that that's true, I'm not debating that. But you know, first of all, veganry goes all over the world and had active participants from over 200 countries, which I think is a world record for any, any movement. And secondly, it empowers a lot of grassroots advocates, a lot of independent vegan businesses, again, all over the world, really benefit from veganry. And thirdly, it really makes inroads into. people's ways of life and we see this. We love people to go vegan overnight and there's nothing wrong with advocating for individual change for that but we should also accept that a lot of people don't go vegan overnight even when we explain our animal rights principles to them. They can reject that hands down and focus on increasing plant based options for other aspects and that's okay. We are where we are, we are who we are, we have to meet everybody halfway with any social change and try and encourage people, engage with them and not reject them. And it will be absolutely clear that for too long this movement has rejected people who are the closest to us because they're not quite vegan or they don't quite
Jim:
Mm.
Tim Barford:
get it or they, you know, are bad, I'm glad to say. is really coming to an end. Even now, there's a few proponents of that approach who are really reconsidering that, because they understand. With climate crisis, we have to get over some of these without throwing the principles out of the bus. We cannot let them get in the way of social progress and especially system change with plant-based diets. The plant-based food systems are essential. You know, and the truth is you don't have to be vegan to advocate for plant-based food system change and we actually need a consensus, particularly people like local councils, you know, cross party but also cross diet, you know, people who are not necessarily vegan. We need to work with them as allies to bring through plant-based food systems and prepare the ground for what would be a vegan world. have. Individual changes is at the heart of it, I would say that, but individual change is a real focus for a lot of us. But system change is a more of a specialised area, it requires different strategy, tactics, communication, it's by consensus a lot more. And you know for system change and plant-based food systems sometimes the vegan argument isn't the most appropriate. that the consensus to invest more in allotment growing and inner city growing isn't a vegan it's not a vegan principle it's a plant based it's about environment, sustainable food supply, food sovereignty, health and... recreating environments for free living beings. It's not about the principle of not using animals. That is a back part. And it's just important to have these adult conversations now and recognise that look, you know, there's some pin-brokers doing some really good work with system change. And I'm going to point to one recently, you know, plant-based universities. And there is Nathan on GB News very recently advocating forward plant-based universities. Now clearly that's system change. That's about, or institutional change, that's about universities recognising the research they've done and acting upon it. Are we asking everybody to go vegan? Well, we would certainly be asking people to question whether they think they should be using animals and whether animals have the right not to be commodified and whether there's a moral discussion to be had. And if the answer is, well, yeah, then, you know, are we then looking to align our values with our lifestyle choices? But can we demand people go vegan? Of course not. You know, what we can do is encourage institutions to adopt more plant-based options, meanwhile advocating individually by asking that question. Yes, and I would ask all students, everybody, in fact. particularly the students in this case, to consider them all valuable animals, to consider where animals have a right not to be commodified. Definitely have those conversations. Can we demand they go vegan? Of course not. We know that. This is by education, inspiration, and a growth and encouragement. And really it starts, I think, with asking those questions.
Jim:
Asking those questions and having those kind of adult conversations as you described, you know, all speak to kind of an element of like pragmatism that's required within the sort of vegan movement, if you like, to work with others and collaborate effectively and so on to drive change. When I think about, you know, things like VegFest, would you see those as kind of, if you like, advocating for that approach in kind of its mission?
Tim Barford:
Well, very much was to begin with. So VegFest we founded 20 years ago, 2003. VegFest was set up really on the back of, I think, one key issue. I don't mind relating this to it, because it's true and it's relevant. And in 2002, I went to the London Vegan Festival with my then stepson, aged 15. And my partner and I were both vegan. The stepson, he used to go off to his dad, obviously, every now and again, and his dad wasn't vegan, he used to have to sort of throw bento's pie. And that was sort of concession, that was teenage style and what have you. But he was vegan in our household. And then if he went to his dad's, he may have a Froebenos pie. So we went to the London Vegan Festival. And that was one of the only vegan festivals that was running at the time. It was at the Conway Hall. And two things happened. One, someone asked whether he was vegan or not. He said, no, I'm not. He says, oh, how long have you been vegetarian? He says, oh, well, I'm not. You know, I eat the old Froebenos pie. At that point he was asked to leave. I said, oh well you can't be here. And we were staggered. I couldn't believe it, because we'd come from a free festival. We were travellers, you know. anybody could come to her and say what's all this? This is bigotry, it's discrimination, what are you on about? I was really upset and I walked away with Sol and as we walked away there was quite a gathering of pretty anarchic, it reminded me of the convoy actually, it wasn't that attractive, it was quite off putting in the way. We walked away and I remember saying this isn't going to work. We need people to be able to come to our events and become vegan, you know, it's not a closed circle. And it was quite a closed circle, man. It was quite off-putting. I remember interviewing Ronnie Lou once, and he said, oh yeah, well, we didn't want people to like us. You know? And that was a fundamental difference between that ALF approach, which of course was doing a lot of undercover work. It was quite a dangerous work. You know, had some very committed. very progressive, quite anarchy people under that umbrella doing some pretty amazing rescue work and stuff but they were by nature quite like the opposite of what we wanted to do is just say to people, hey, come along. have a party, have some good food, make some good people. You know, there'll be some leaflets there. You'll be able to get an education. You'll be able to learn how to make a blackcurrant, tofu cheesecake or something like that. And have a veggie burger and listen to some good music and kind of feel that vibe and start unpicking some of that inner speciesism that exists. And that's a really important part. So I think it's true to say that in the early days of VegFest, there really wasn't, I mean we made sure everything was vegan. We didn't really have like that much discussions on animal rights and such like, you know, there was more, there was a lot of campaigns, we had all the campaigns. I kind of figured, oh well I'll do that work, you know. job was to get people over the first place, try not to put them off. You have to remember that at the time there wasn't, you know, like the public face of animal rights was shocking. I mean in 1990... I'd be careful what I say here because I know that this particular bombing is not attributed to the ALM, it was attributed to the ALM, which is the Animal Liberation Militia. And they were an offshoot of the ALF that was specifically violent. Now, whether that's true or not, I don't know, but I certainly wouldn't want to upset my long-standing ALF colleagues because I understand that when that bomb went off in Bristol University, it blew up a professor. and also put some shrapnel through the 13 month old child's push chair and really blackened the name of animal rights forever and ever. I do recognise that the media played a big part in that and that it was blown up, obviously, just gives the pun, out of all proportion. I think ALF wrongly labelled for that. it was up for it however it however it came about it was in the name of the animal rights movement and that threw back any kind of idea of vegan I mean I was living in bristol as a vegan advocate I had a small child aged four it wasn't helpful and Bristol, it took a long time to recover from that. And there's still people today. The gentleman who was in the Pritchett area is now mid-30s and lives a few streets away. He's still scarred for life. So those things haven't been forgotten. It's a very difficult time to kinda, so I suppose my idea was, hey, look, let's just throw this on its head. Put on some really good bands, put on a load of comedy, Magic, Kids Area, Kate, The Lot, you know, no matter about the issues, we're just gonna have a party. And that was Farmer in Keeping with Bristol, which by then, of course, in the 80s and the 90s, it had the, in the 80s, a lot of festivals. In the 90s, there's a whole Avon Free party scene, which was huge and culminated in the biggest rave ever. In 1993, I think, with Carson Morton. We still talk about it today. And the whole place had gone party mad in the mid-90s. So, you know, by the time we start in 2003, you know, actually, thing hit home and everybody loved it and we just got a massively positive reaction to what we were doing and it was unheard of at the time, there was just nothing like it. I think what was really nice was I know now of course it was a lot of my friends then who were really promoting plant-based diets, they weren't animal rights activists, you know people in the 70s and 80s who were not in the A-life. who weren't doing those missions, but were quietly doing stalls and tabling. You know, people are questioning where did vegan outreach start. Vegan outreach started pretty much in this country after the Second World War with the formation of the Vegan Society in 1944. Now when you look at people like Arthur Ling, I mean Arthur went vegan 20 years before the world was invented. He was developing biofuels in the 50s. He started a vegan factory in 1963, the year I was born. I mean, it was weird. I picked up Katherine Janoway, Fay Henderson, Elsie Shrigley. There were some fantastic vegan advocates out there. And of course, Leslie Cross, who was perhaps one of the forerunners, really, of that animal rights position. was later then explored by people like Tom Ragan in the 80s and Garifrancio in the 90s. And you know, when I came to animal rights, I didn't come to animal rights understanding until 2015. You know, that's how long it was before I really understood animal rights as a principle. And that's, you know, credit my good friend, colleague Roger Yates with a lot of that. And Roger's done some fabulous work and still is, you know. terrific looking, he's a real animal rights advocate in the... in the format of Tom Reagan, you know, it's a Tom Reagan of a kind. I think that understanding does underpin our movement, perhaps a lot more than he would think, you know, I see it differently because I'm up with a lot of the younger activists, the up and coming activists, I've registered on TikTok quite a lot, I'm not sure we get such a good, you know, but I would say very clearly that our modern day animal rights movement is very much a rights-based movement. that were, especially last decade, a lot of which are rolled from Bech Vest, really had those debates in those conferences and those summits. I would say nowadays we have a lot more of an understanding of a rights-based movement, but it's grown into a holistic movement, and that's really exciting. I don't see any stopping that now. In fact, we're right on the cusp of some really big growth spurs. I would say the animal rights movement at last has moved out of nappies, has gone out of short pants and is about to go to secondary school and develop it to a young adult and that's where I see it. You know, we're about to have some adolescent growth spurs that I hope by the end of this decade will have really impacted and the adults will be back in the world. for ruling this country for example, the government will have adults in the room, so clearly they don't have the money and we will be heard loud and clear, first of all on a plant-based food system shift which is absolutely demanded, we have to get behind that. But in paving the way with an underpinning animal rights, we will then have the, you know, ready by the end of this decade, we'll be primed for a huge explosion for animal liberation. And I do believe that by the time we hit perhaps 2060, 2050 maybe, you know, we'll have made, perhaps another... No, 2040, I'd say another 15, 16, 17 years, we would have shifted to plant those food systems and we would have established a new understanding as a default that we no longer view animals as commodities across vast swathes of the population.
Jim:
How have you, in the time since VegFest has been going, how have you seen things evolve in the space of, I'm thinking of the folks who exhibit, who sell, who speak at an event like VegFest. How have you seen that transition in those kind of folks?
Tim Barford:
Right, in a nutshell, for the independent vegan trading, it's been absolutely west and soon. It's a proper hard going. We are seeing it because we deal with independence and we're just seeing it go out of business. The whole shift to mainstream has been crippling for a number of independents. And that's been going on since pretty much January 2018. You could define it with Wicked Kitchen launched in Tesco within six months. Every supermarket had their own range. For example, last year, the Plant Pioneer range from Marks and Spencer rose 14% in sales across the board. That's a huge shift given the amount of outlets they have. We're talking volumes of plant-based options. At the same time, we've seen the independents drop, 30% during the same period. So there's been a big shift towards the multiples. And that's obviously huge, but it has dented the vegan independent trader massively. So even as far back as 2019, we saw one of our first casualty lists was Miss Cupcake. cupcake if you remember, they used to have a bakery in Brixton, I think they opened in 2012 or 11 and at the time they were the only vegan cupcakes in town and people literally used to cross London to go to get their cupcakes from this cupcake and then you know they would cross town to come to our show to come and get them. Now, even as recently, even 4 or 5 years ago, they've just started crossing the road to Lidl or Waitrose and buying a less. you know an inferior product but cheaper and cupcakes so and in 2019 this cupcake had to hang up closed shutters and closed down and we've seen that accelerate and just like this year even when we were doing Bristol Vegan Fair this summer in that three month period we saw five or six potential clients shutting down And that's just heartbreaking the time and again, we've got people going out of business. I'm going out of business for an independent food trader, you don't go into business unless you're really committed. And to go out is shattering. And you know, I do worry. with the mental health challenges that a lot of the independent traders have to face. And of course we're doing our utmost to make sure that these shows are well attended, that the spend is good. But we're up against the fiercest economic crisis that I can remember. And I go right the way back to the 60s and 70s. I remember the three day week in 1973, the strikes and all the rest of it. This is brutal. This is brutal. And it's clearly planned. I mean, you know, just government. This government, the only thing different from the Thatcher government is we all hated Thatcher and we were all united against Thatcher. Margaret Thatcher 40 years ago brought the underground movement together as one. We saw this going back to 1984, the miners' strike, the reception we had from the miners' community. We worked together and had so much shared values and the main shared values we just despise Margaret Thatcher. That, you know, I don't know, they've got better at their game, whoever they are. But maybe it was all that money Rishi Sunak gave away during lockdown. But, you know, he doesn't have the same hatred. There doesn't seem to be the same unity. Perhaps there should be, you know. So the economic crisis has mullered our independent activists. really hit our events, it's hit all the events, all the vegan events, have been badly hit and they're just standing a lot of them and it's only because there's some very, very determined, committed people making sure they face up to all their struggles and get these events over the line and I absolutely credit people like Vegan Campout and the Vegan Kids Festival. Veg Out West. There's another one, an animal sanctuary in south of England you see. I can't just quote them. Oh the Wild Hearts, I think it's the Wild Hearts. You know, absolute credit to these people. And Vegan Events UK, there's the Far Play sponsors. There's half a dozen and one or two more too. Really good people doing these really good events that are really under supported and under resourced. battling against the odds. So that has been really tough. And even for me, I'm 60, I've been doing it 43 years ago, I did my first. event. I've never known it like this. It's brilliant.
Jim:
Mm.
Tim Barford:
And even though I've got a lot of tools in my box, my toolbox, it's requiring... very committed. You know, it's not easy. So my empathy is with a lot of people, traders
Jim:
Mm.
Tim Barford:
and organisers and such. But for the campaigns, it's just different. It's a whole different story. So a lot of charities right now are quite well funded. They're quite stable. They get quite a lot of legacies, quite a lot of grants, quite a lot of donations. Now, that's not true across the board. I know that and some are really struggling. Animal centuries tend to really struggle. But some of the, you know, and you can tell because, you know, The campaign groups are often advertising for new people to join them. That's a clear sign that they're a lot more stable and a lot more able to function ahead than your average independent trader. So that's not pretending for one minute that the charities and campaigns have to face some pretty challenging issues too. For example, it was only last week I spoke to a vegan-side trademark team that's had to downsize by something like 25%, which anybody who works in any kind of organisation will know that means a lot of extra work for
Jim:
Mm.
Tim Barford:
some individuals. So they're suddenly having to really do a lot. You know, they're having a multi-task in a way that perhaps their job description didn't indicate at the time.
Jim:
Yeah.
Tim Barford:
So, but what's really exciting... is that what we've really seen change is There's a real collaboration going on between the campaign groups now. Now this has never happened before. It's always happened in bits and bobs. But as my esteemed colleague Claire from Animal Justice Project mentioned just recently, she said, you know, when she started it just wasn't a done thing. People didn't collaborate. They kept on, you know, the campaign groups were still in their infancies, a lot of them, and they were very protective about their identities and their actual campaigns. And although they've all evolved, worked, you know, a lot of them are individuals who have been perhaps worked for different animal groups within that. For example, Tony from Veganuary, who runs Veganuary, used to work with Animal Equality and I put it short with Viva too, 20 years ago. So you know, there's a lot of the team members amongst each other, we've all got that built in networking, friendship and such, but it just hasn't been a done thing until really recently. Now we're seeing really strong collaborations. And this is vital for a mass movement. And if we're gonna achieve what we wanna do, which is to get plant-based food systems as a default by the end of the decade and make massive inroads into animal liberation. rights as an understanding in societies by the end of the next decade we are absolutely going to have to collaborate and work together, find ways of retaining our identities, our donor bases are important, our supporters, our volunteers have really important issues, our branding, our uniqueness and our unique positions within the movement. and recognise that not all groups are as well funded or well resourced or big. We all look a little bit the same from the outside looking in, but when you're looking from the inside looking out, we know there's some big differences there. But we've just hosted two panels literally just last weekend, first of September, second, third. They're available to watch. You can find them on our Facebook pages and such. pretty recently. And this is like based in Movement Unity. So we've had Animal Justice Project, we've had VIVA, we've had Animal Aid, we've had Animal Think Tank, Animal Rising, We the Free, plant-based treaty, plant-based universities, all on panels, talking about recent collaborations, talking about what's in the pipeline. for example a big collaboration has been headed up by Viva for the COP28 conference which they're already working on. There's really a sense of, especially again from the up and coming out, of hey let's get on this and work together we can really amplify each other's message and that's really changed. So on the one hand to come back to your original question what's changed over 20 years? You know, 15 years ago we had this couple, Jamie and Brianna, turn up with a little table and three snack bars to do their first show and they had this little table and three bars they were doing some sampling. And that was naked, naked snack bars. And then five years ago, they're selling a third of their company for 45 million or something to a Dutch multinational. I mean, this is staggering. Butte Island, who make the Sheese brand, turned up 2007. Same thing. So two years ago, from a lot of money to a big multinational. Cocoa Dairy Free, they used to come to all our shows, they started with one tub of milk and then they've grown hugely. And that's really exciting to see all that, but of course it's the opposite now. We really are the opposite now. We're seeing the independence struggling like never before. So that's the downside, but the benefit
Jim:
Mm.
Tim Barford:
of that is of course everything's gone mainstream. So I think all of us are kind of like, oh yeah, you know, we're happy, but we're paying the price for it too. Look, I'll be clear, that is soul destroying to watch your business crumble in front of you. No matter what benefits there are exteriorly, it's still you as an individual who have to manage that and soul destroy it. But anybody who's been through that knows that. That's not to say that there isn't, you know, but this is part of it. It's like all this conflicting stuff. I don't believe that I know that nearly all of us are just happy to see this growth. We know it's needed and as some of us have to pay the price for that a little bit, you know, okay, so be it. It doesn't necessarily make it any easier, but it
Jim:
Mm.
Tim Barford:
does make it valid. But you know what we're seeing with the campaigns are going so small and so had to fight so hard and just see dedicated few individuals who dragged these things through and made them happen and you know I absolutely love these people. We all know these people, the silent volunteer, the unknown hero. We owe these people so much, so much gratitude. And now we're seeing these campaigns, like this is some of the Plumbers Treaties, two years old, gone all over the world. It's making inroads on levels that nobody ever imagined. And on like the hotly, you know, the crest, everybody endorse that treaty. So, that's really exciting. And I think we're gonna see more of that. even as recently as coming up in November at our VegFest in London, the event at Olympia, we're going to see more panels. And we've got a route map. We've put a route map together for the next 12 months for collaborations around about six key areas, including the use of animals in laboratories, including the animal rights march. understanding what it means, what a rights-based movement means, who Tom Rogan was, including the COP20A, including the gannery and all the food, including animals used for entertainment, including shooting, hunting, zoos, captive animals, fishing, snares, all of this aspect, and then there's animals used for clothing. So the animal movement is really beginning to collaborate, cold note, around these key areas. I think what we'll see next year is some really good collaborations. Along the lines of what we've already seen, so Aintree this year, anyone paying attention will see a really big collaboration between. Animal Rising who headed that up but backed up very strongly with groups like Viva and Animal Aid both of whom have very strong horse campaigns in place already. There was also broader support for people at Animal Justice Project. Then we had also the Hunt Sabs getting involved on that one and Merseyside Animal Rights Greens, there's a grassroots there too. And there was a really fabulous collaboration going on that lifted this whole issue right into mainstream media. And then of course we had something again that we hadn't seen, is we had animal rights advocates actually trained in how to present on the media. So a lot of this was right wing media. We had a really good set of animal advocates, mainly from Animal Rising, people like Alex Lockwood, Orla and such,
Jim:
Mm.
Tim Barford:
who practiced, they practiced, you know, they practiced. Ben, they practiced, they practiced twice a week. One of them would take the part of the, whatever, the Piers Morgan or something, and they'd start throwing, you know, stuff. And I've done all that work. I've been on the Vanessa Phelps show and such, you know, it's an absolute nightmare when you get... really pushy, you know, people are just looking to get it. They don't wanna listen. So you know, it's a real
Jim:
Mm.
Tim Barford:
skill. And not everyone has it. And of course the key area in these things is not to lose your cool. If you can keep your cool, just keep some nice little sound bites going out, keep smiling, almost by default, you resonate, you come out on top. advice to anybody going on the media is have a look at what animal rising is doing. Practice before you go on.
Jim:
Thanks for watching!
Tim Barford:
Don't just go up against these people without any training. Get yourself trained up. It's a real skill set.
Jim:
Tim, it's been amazing having you on. I really appreciate your time. Where would folks go about finding out a little bit more and what have you got coming up?
Tim Barford:
Okay so we've got London Vegan Comedy Festival September 30th October 1st that is specifically showcasing the vegan artiste collective which was really grinding before lockdown got absolute pummel jaw lockdown and we're showcasing perhaps around 35 comedians and artistses musicians performers authors such like so that's great you can come along to that and go to vegfest.co.uk and get tickets for that London Vegan Comedy Festival and then we've got the Vegfest UK London and that's taking place at Olympia on November 18th, 19th. Come along to that, get involved with that, and do, look, I'll be honest, right? We need your support, yes. We need your support. Our collectives need your support. we've been sure of support, all of us. So let's have it, because there's no guarantee they'll be there again. That's the truth. People will need to see what's in front of them and seize the moment. be that support your local campaign group, particularly support your local regional vegan events. And if you can't buy a ticket, I don't know, perhaps if you can consider a donation, it's great, or buy somebody a ticket. Bring your non-vegan friends along, it's really good. We've got a really good conversion rate actually going on at our shows. Really high, something like 85%, 30% of our visitors are not vegan, but 85% of them are really suitable and impressed enough to make some changes. So it's a really good outreach opportunity. But particularly, please do consider two things. One is support your local independent vegan businesses. They're probably needing more than most. And see if you can get active, even in a passive way, perhaps, you know, with petitions, if you're not already active, see if there's some areas you could develop that would be, you know, help, help this movement. end on that note of a famous quote from the Roman soldier when asked his name. He said, my name is Legion for we are many. That's how we've got the beers in the building. So, thanks Jim. I really like that.
Jim:
Love
Tim Barford:
Hello,
Jim:
it Tim. Fantastic
Tim Barford:
Lester.
Jim:
place to leave it. I'll make sure I put links in the show notes for everyone. Again, thank you for your time and thank you for all you're doing for the movement.
Tim Barford:
Thanks sir. Thanks.